As salamu 'alikum wr wb, (May the Peace, Mercy of Allah and Blessings be upon you).
Missionary Ken Temple "Statistics, Google, Iran and Stuff"
Good 'ol Protestant and Calvinist Ken Temple is at it again. I would actually be willing to go out on a limb and say that Ken Temple in real life is probably a descent guy. I bet it would be nice to have a cup of coffee with Ken. I bet Ken may even let you borrow his lawn mower to trim the grass on a Sunday afternoon.
But there is another side to Ken Temple. That is his infatuation with Iran and the Persian people. Yet, Ken Temple has a problem. He has a problem with facts and figures. Ken Temple has been documented many a times on this web site for his dishonesty and flat lies.
Yet, Finally people (Other Christians who are not Muslim) are catching on! I would not be surprised if some major editing of this particular post of Ken Temple's takes place or that he deletes some comments. So in anticipation I actually saved that particular entry along with the comments.
One can't be too careful around some Christian missionaries these days. How unfortunate.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-and-why-did-churches-become-mosques_18.html
Ken wrote, "more Muslims have come to Christ in the last 30 years than in all previous mission history!!"
What source are you using? How many Muslims were converted before that? Have you checked every 30 year period of history against the last 30 to to substantiate your claim? Do you have accurate data and accurate records from every 30 year span prior to the last 30 to substantiate your claim? Thanks in advance for the info.
Yet Another Christian had questions for Ken..
Ken,
Even though I am not RC, I agree with Matthew that you should cite sources if you are going to make comments about more Muslims coming to Christ in the last 30 yrs than all previous history.
I do think it would be safe to say that there have been more Orthdox Christians since the birth of Christianity than all Protestants combined. (I would be willing to find statistics on that) Also, not long ago, I was reading an article (forgive me, I don't remember where) in which it was stated that the EO Church is the second largest Christian faith group in the world, with Roman Catholicism being the largest.
So, what do numbers proove in and of themselves? When I was a member of the Church of Bible Understanding, we went street witnessing every day. We went marathon witnessing on weekends. When we had our big meetings, reports of HUNDREDS of people being saved in each fellowship were given. We were a part of the explosive "Jesus Movement" of the 70's.
That was not really my main point; but I am glad you caught that.
This is based on the fact that very few Muslims in history have turned from Islam to Christ before 30 years ago; and we just don’t have very much records of many turning away from Islam to Christ in Islamic history. It was usually the other way around. Turning from Islam was and is punishable by death in Muslim countries that actually carry out the Sharia law, derived from the Qur’an and the Hadith.
• Hadith: Al Bukhari :
• Law of apostacy: If anyone turns from Islam, kill him.(9:84:57)
• War is deceit – repeated often. (4:52:267, 268, 269)
• “If you embrace Islam, you will be safe.” (4:53:392)
• Muhammed wrote letters to Khosrow, king of Iran and Hericlius, Byzantine Emperor, “If you become a Muslim, you will be safe.” (1:1:6) (also, 4:52:190-191)
The statement is mostly based on reports from missionaries, mission organizations, and former Muslims.
Statistics are tricky; (Ken Temple I bet they are) I agree that it is an educated guess; but many former Muslims and missions organizations are reporting on these things. Also, statistics do not measure true faith or true conversion in the heart; and “openness” is not the same as actual conversion. It is difficult to get accurate stats because it is illegal to become a Christian in Muslim countries, culturally and socially, if not officially enforced by the more lenient/westernized Muslim governments.
Perhaps, to be more accurate, we should say, “It seems that more Muslims are turning to Christ than every before ( or in many years).” (Ken Temple finally amends his post)
Read all 9 pages of this report: on page 2 he starts reporting on statistics:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/september9/1.34.html?start=2
Some Iranians (former Muslims) report of 35,000; others report 150,000 MBBs (“Muslim Background Beleivers” or “former Muslims” who now believe in Jesus; and during the 50s, 60s, 70s, there were maybe 500 at most, scattered throughout the country.
http://www.farsinet.com/ici/
From the histories of Iran that I have read, it is true. Most all of the Nestorian Christians were wiped out first by the Zoroastrian persecutions, later by the Muslims, then they were pretty much completely destroyed by the Mongolian invasions of Genghis Khan and Timor e Lang (Tamerlane). There is no record of significance of Muslims turning to Christ in Iran until the last 30 years.
There are other reports on Bangla Desh and Indonesia, etc. Google and look around and you will find a lot of material.
Whether they are all truly converted is another issue.
Ken Temple says all we really have to do is just 'Google'. Yup! This is a Reformed Christian who works in mission fields advise. Also the next part of the advise s to 'look around and you will find a lot of material'. In fact folks you will find so much material that Ken Temple couldn't have possibly paused took a deep breath, waded through the material and provided us with some accurate statistics.
Than you also have this little gem from Ken Temple (your source for everything Persian and Iran 24/7 day a week news channel on the Farsi Language, and Iranian people and culture).
He says here: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/06/submit-or-die-early-islamic-dawa.html right at the comment section.
Just to be clear about the video and the Iranian lady in the video. This was not broadcast from Iran. The Iranian government does not allow women to have their hair uncovered in public, must less on any kind of TV broadcast. The Iranian Islam regime also does not allow low cut tops or tight fitting clothes, according to Islamic law.
She is Iranian, and was probably born in Iran, but she and family fled the oppression in her country and immigrated to the west, as many Iranians have done since the 1979 Islamic Revolution led by Ayatollah Khomeini. This is a broadcast by Iranians living in the west, USA, Canada, etc.
The modern women of Iran of today are especially longing for equal rights and the freedoms of the west provide that for them.
"This was not broadcast from Iran. The Iranian government does not allow women to have their hair uncovered in public, must less on any kind of TV broadcast."
salam alalikum brother Good article exposing ken for the man he is. i do sometimes wonder about these reformed folk,they have such low regard for them selves (as taught by john calvin and total depravity) they project this image on the rest of humanity. i feel sorry for them, were we see beauty in the creation of Allah swt they see ugliness.
ReplyDeleteI wonder why he has this obsession with Iran,i know he did some missionary work there but they way he goes on about it you would think he is some kind of expert on the whole history of that region. May be because he wants the the prophecy of our prophet regarding the conquest of Iran to come undone? i know im grasping at straws but his obsession with that country seems strange to me. anyway brother i found some interesting information a while back and i thought i might share it with you.
It is ironically regarding cyrus the great, now as you now in isaiah 45 yahweh takes the credit for annointing cyrus and calling him righteous for freeing his people, but in the cyrus cylinder which dates back to the actual event,it states that it was marduk who annointed cyrus and from the text it confirms that cyrus worshipped marduk. this is a problem for christians because marduk and his other name bel or baal are condemmned in the bible in jeremiah and isaiah. my point is how can christians belive in a book whose author claims that their God appointed a messiah to free the jewish people when in fact we know from primary sources that the person in question worshipped a deity condemmed and mocked in the bible?? the cyrus cylinder also never states anything about the jewish people pe se but does admits to letting people go back to thier land with thier idol gods and building thier temples at the behest of marduk not yahweh.is marduk greater than yahweh?? i only say this because baptist christians like ken are always saying how Allah swt is not real (astagfirullah)
1. If one reads all my stuff you link to here closely, you see that the only over-statement I made is, "more Muslims are turning to Christ in the past 30 than in all previous history". It is the "than all previous history" that is not knowable. It still could be true, but there is no way to be 100 % accurate. Since it is of past centuries and we have no records of Muslims turning to Christ before the last 2 centuries, and apostates were usually killed by Islamic law, as the Hadith quotes that I gave prove.
ReplyDeleteWhat is true that "many Muslims are turning to Christ in the past 30 years, especially Iranians; apparently more than in previous to that years". That is still accurate.
You don't think it is good to correct one's over-statement? You don't think being honest and seeking to be accurate is a good thing?
I seems you don't admire honesty and accuracy. That is also part of “integrity”, right?
This is true:
Some Iranians (former Muslims) report of 35,000; others report 150,000 MBBs (“Muslim Background Believers” or “former Muslims” who now believe in Jesus; and during the 50s, 60s, 70s, there were maybe 500 at most, scattered throughout the country. http://www.farsinet.com/ici/
Here is another web-site that confirms what I am saying.
http://www.persecution.net/ir-2010-09-09.htm
It is well known that many Muslims are becoming Christians secretly in Iran and outside of Iran. I did give some link to articles and some rough estimates. (The Christianity Today article shows you.) It is admittedly hard to know exactly, for it is very difficult to get statistics on people who are doing something illegal according to Islamic law/Sharia.
Continued
2. Nothing I wrote about the Iranian program broadcast from the west vs. inside Iran was inaccurate. All women are required to have their hair covered in Iran in public and in a TV broadcast. It is true that Iran is better for women than Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and Pakistan and many other parts of the Muslim world - yes, in Iran, women can vote, and work, and drive, and show their faces, and get nose plastic surgery. Great! Nothing I wrote is contradictory to that. They don’t enforce the hijab laws as strictly today as they did during the Khomeini years – the women are longing for more freedom and so they push the limits with showing some of their hair and wearing some make-up. But the “moral police” do sometimes crack down on them for too much make-up and fingernail polish and showing too much hair. Yes, they have women fire departments and race car drivers, but if you noticed, they all followed the hijab rule of at least having a head covering. Are you hoping people won’t actually read everything carefully and watch the report carefully? So nothing I wrote was contradictory to that, and the news report by Matt Lauer and Richard Engle and NBC is true and does not contradict anything I wrote. I hope all will listen to that carefully.
ReplyDeleteThey do have modesty codes though. One person, Marcus McElheny, whom you interact with, thought the broadcast was actually from Iran. (he responded to it at his web-site; I think he corrected his mistake.) I was just trying to be accurate for him to help him understand that it was not broadcast from Iran, but from Iranians in the west. (USA and Canada - and many Iranians in Europe, Australia, etc. have the same kind of programs.)
The Matt Lauer special on Iran just proves that Iran is actually more nice to women than many Sunni countries and areas. And I commend Iran for that! Iranian women are indeed highly educated in Iran, yes. I knew that. They are much better and more fair and just to women than the Taliban and Wahabi Sunni movements. (Saudi Arabia, Taliban areas, Pakistan, etc. other parts of Muslim world.) In some areas of the Muslim world, women are not allowed to vote or drive or work outside the home or show their faces in public.
But, Matt Lauer got Iran and Iraq mixed up in his opening statement. (Typical American mistake – so many mix up Iran and Iraq all the time.)
continued
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkdru_86_qY&feature=related
ReplyDeleteAn Iranian pastor (he broadcasts from the west) in the west tells of the disillusionment of Iranians with Islam in Iran, and of the openess to Christ. The other man interviewed 40 Iranian pastors and ministry leaders (all in the west) and they all give confirmation to what I have said. There are many Iranian coming to Christ, both inside Iran and outside. (The Diaspora) Many Iranians have fled Iran and they have broadcasts both secular and religious from the west to the greater Iranian and Farsi speaking populations.
So, you stop the name calling of lying, and just argue with the facts and reason. Some of your articles are not full of integrity because of the way your connect things that are not related to one another. Islam itself and Allah Himself calls upon your conscience to stop lying about me and skewing things.
Thanks for posting most of what I wrote. I appreciate that sincerely.
ReplyDeleteYou left out my intro sincere wish of peace to you from Al Masih. Admittedly it was long and I preached the gospel to you; and you have heard it before.
What about the part I included about Lauren Booth? It is relevant to the post since you mentioned her first, right?
I admit she has testified she converted to Islam in Iran, on a short trip, being moved by the beauty and peace she felt there, in a Shiite Mosque in the city of Qom, Masjid of Fatimeh, daughter of Imam Reza (the eighth Imam of Shiite Islam) .
But she is back in England now. She has never said whether her Islam is Sunni or Shiite or what. Don't you wonder?
And the video you linked to is no longer there at your article about her.
With the name of Allah,
ReplyDeleteThank you Ken for informing me about the Link concerning Lauren Booth, It has been corrected. I have also uploaded an interesting interview she has. My assumption (though I have no proof) is that she is Ithna Ashari, the Jafari school of fiqh or otherwise known as Shi'a.
I also would presume (though I have no proof) that Idris Tawfiq (The Roman Catholic who embraced Islam) is also Ithna Ashari, the Jafari school of fiqh or otherwise known as the Shi'a.
In fact the Shi'a have been making headway against Sunni Muslims all throughout the gulf and it has the house of Saud timid.
By the way I met with the Speaker of Parliament from Iran (and presumably next president) last week Ali Larinjani. He and his delegation prayed in our Mosque. I went to him and said salams and I said I wish for peace between the United States and Iran.
He responded my salams and said he too wished for peace. He said he has no problem with the American people (and I felt like mumbling under my breath I know it's our government isn't it).
Since I read about him before our encounter as he is a student of Western Philosophy with a keen interest in Kant (interestingly enough) I asked him for his favorite Kant quote.
In fact he responded by quoting Jesus and saying, "Do not do that thing to another that you do not want done to yourself".
He had a very pleasant disposition, a warm smile and a very fragrant smell by Allah.
It was a good exchange.
I am glad you had a good conversation and meeting with Speaker of Parliament Ali Larijani.
ReplyDeleteAs I have said before, Iranians are the most hospitable people in the world!
I found Abdullah Kunde's blog, "Apologetic Student" - and some of your comments. In his article "After they start burning books"
When you wrote this:
"I think personally this is THE BEST argument the Christians have against us."
Did you mean
a. About the Bism'allah issue?
b. That Christians are more honest and open about their textual variants?
c. That we didn't have the state to protect Scriptures for first 300 years, opposite situation of Islam, that had the state and military under Uthman to protect Qur'an?
or combination of one or two or all three points?
With the name of Allah,
ReplyDeleteI meant about a) the Bism'allah issue. I think that is the best argument that Christians, Atheist or anyone could direct towards our text. I think I have pretty much seen them all (the arguments) directed against our text and transmission.
For me this is the one that stands out.
the muslims are having a vision of a dead jew hanging off a cross? they never had JEWISH INTERPRETATION of YHWH come to them? the israeli's tell me that after the jewish apostate is educated in hebrew language he drops christianity like a hot potatoe and embraces judaism again. is this what happen ken, when pauls mystery god got exposed by the jewish people who showed the misguided jews that pauls god is only found in ot when paul distorts it? is it any suprise that paul knew his interpretation of scripture was not sellable ?
ReplyDeleteIt was necessary that the word of God should first
have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge
yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
lo we turn to the gentiles...
yeah turn to the gentiles because your lies will be sellable to ignorant fools who know not hebrew or aramaic language. is it anywonder the gospels are greek and they depend on greek septugint which according to proffessor james barr is a faulty translation of torah?
about paul
"When that didn't work and none of the more mainstream Jewishfactions bought his nonsense about a resurrected Messiah (since they
all knew the scriptures and no such prophesy had been fulfilled byanything they saw in their time) he FOCUSED instead on the Gentiles.They didn't know what the "prophets of old" prophesied, so Paul could
get away with a hell of a lot more bull****, as is evidenced today byyour fumbling apologetics.
The mainstream Jews wouldn't follow his cult; the radical, reformistJews wouldn't follow his cult; so, he travels FAR from any of it andfocuses on the Gentiles, aka, pagans, who are so desperate to believeanything that they believe just about everything"
so ken tell us, why didn't ORTHODOX jewish intepretation of YHWH never rattle muslims boat?
muslims are turning to dead al mesih? do they KNOW that
according to TORAH
WORDS LIKE
moshiyah
ihoshiyah
are NEVER used in the christian sense?
according to proffessor ben tziyon of messiah truth forum
"which in Hebrew simply means "rescue" from danger—typically by engaging in physical combat (fighting) with an assailant who is assaulting the person being "saved". "
tell me something ken, where are these terms used to mean that god who once WHOOPED pagans got whooped by roman PAGANS and because of this he will not hold your sins against you?
show me where this idea is derived from the terms which your religioon HAS MISUSED.
jim
ken, reza aslan became a born again iranian but then he went back to islam and now is apologist for islam . how come ken? how many of these converts remain sincere in the pagan fold? or are they like those doubters in matthew? doubters who must have been educated by the authourities who TURNED crowds against your god in 2 DAYS. wow that was a freakin GREAT miracle turning crowds against the darling of galilee in 2 days.
ReplyDeleteken, you mention the words book burning , tell me something ken, how come a rabbi like jesus whose FAME spread in jerusalem AND THROUGHOUT syria and who TAUGHT in the synagougues where many came and heard him, not one ARAMAICK or hebrew document RECORDING these speeches? isn't that a SHOCKER? not one doc RECOVERED in these languages? only greek? ehrman has proven in his book forged that where your god used to hang out it would be in a place WHERE PEOPLE WERE ONLY SPEAKIN in HEBREW or ARAMAIC i.e these would BE THE POPULAR LANGUAGUES THERE. THIS guys miracle workin fame spreads in the syrian language, but know one thought to presevr his words in syrian language which is a dialect of aramaic?
ken preached the gospel. i preach to him response to his gospel
ReplyDeletehttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/8480f4d87522f033?dmode=print
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/4381591ee231e042?dmode=print
note nearly every single christian apologetic argument is addressed ?
Anonymous -
ReplyDeleteWhere does Reza Aslan claim that he became a Christian for a while and then went back to Islam?
You may be right, but I have not seen that documentation. Can you give us some documentation?
The answer to your other question about Greek and Aramaic and Hebrew is that Alexander the Great did a good job of hellenizing (making Greek language and culture very influential) the Middle East with Koine Greek as the linqua franka of the Levant area, so that they communicate with each other - Greeks, Romans (continued under them). It had become the language of communication of the Roman Empire so the word could spread out from Palestine/Israel. There is some Aramaic within the Greek text that is transliterated and translated, especially in Mark.
Some books are easy to see the Hebrew-Aramaic structure under the Greek by the simple grammar of the Greek - like the Gospel of John and 1-3 John and Revelation. The author was a Jew who was writing in his second language, Greek. Paul could write better Greek being more highly educated. I Peter is higher, as Silvanus is a Gentile who is writing for Peter the Jew. I Peter 5:12 Hebrews and Luke and Acts are even higher polished Greek - Luke being a Gentile/Greek and the author of Luke Acts. The high level of Greek of Hebrews caused some to speculate that maybe Apollos wrote Hebrews because he was a highly educated Jew - and an Alexandrian by birth, which was fully hellenized by Alexander centuries before. His first language was Greek, even though ethnically, he was a Jew. Personally, I think Barnabas wrote Hebrews, as he was a Levite (Acts 4:36 and this points to the details about the Levitical laws in Hebrews) and nicknamed "son of Encouragement" and gives a glue as to who the writer is by calling Hebrews a "letter of encouragement/exhortation" (Hebrews 13:22). But his first language was Greek as he was a Cypriot by birth. Acts 4:36. Tertullian around 200 AD also wrote that he thought Barnabas was the author of the book of Hebrews. (He knew Timothy and shows familiarity with Paul's thought.)
Hebrew had become pretty much a dead language because of the Babylonian invasions and the Exile of the Jews to Babylon for 70 years. That is why they spoke mostly Aramaic, which is a cognate/cousin language of Hebrew.
The Rabbis of course preserved Hebrew, but it took a while to bring it back. When the Jews were scattered throughout Europe and Russia and Central Asia - Yiddish was developed.