Jews and Christians DON'T worship the SAME God-Steve Hays.

Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem,

As salamu 'alikum wr wb, (May the Peace, Mercy of Allah and Blessings be upon you).

Steve Hays: Jews and Christians DO NOT worship the SAME God.

Steve Hays a self styled reformed Protestant apologist whom will grasp at any straw imaginable to present an 'argument'.

Actually, it didn't surprise me that Steve went and snatched up some article he found online. Since Steven is not quite capable of producing his own argumentation he latched hold of some twisted logic that he felt would do the trick.

In his self styled war against the Roman Catholic sect of Christianity this cheer leader of the Protestant (specifically Calvinist) brand of Christianity re-presented an argument that he felt had flawless logic behind it.

You can see that 'argument' here:

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2011/05/one-true-islamic-sect.html 'The One True Islamic Sect'.

His friend who goes by the name 'turretinfan' re-produces that argument here. However, notice the title that 'turretinfan' uses "Proof that Rome is a sect of Islam". I will explain in due course why this was a rather sloppy title. That is if Turretinfan really was paying attention.

http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2011/05/proof-that-rome-is-sect-of-islam.html

So in responding to a gentleman by the name of 'David' Steve Hays had the following to say:

STEVE SAID:

DAVID SAID:

“But the theological overlap comes from Islam's strict monotheism, with which we agree…”

No, we don’t agree. That’s fatally equivocal. There’s no overlap between worshipping the one true God and worshipping one false god.

Monotheistic idolatry is no better than polytheistic idolatry.

“…and their identification of the one God as the God of Abraham, with which we also agree.”

They don’t worship Yahweh. They don’t worship the God of Abraham.

God didn’t reveal himself in the Koran. The Koran is not a self-revelation of the one true God. Muhammad was a false prophet. Therefore, the Koranic god doesn’t map onto the OT God. Rather, the Koranic god is just a literary construct–like the Homeric gods.

“They believe in ‘what may be known about God...[His] invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - [which] have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made.’”

Islamic theism falsifies the natural knowledge of God. It superimposes an idolatrous reinterpretation onto natural revelation.

“To the extent that they are not culpable for their ignorance, they are not responsible for being ignorant of doctrines specific to Revelation like the Trinity and redemption through Jesus.”

If we grant your tendentious premise, which begs the question.

“Their fidelity to what can be known by God through nature situates them to fit Paul's category for the Gentiles of his time in Romans 1-2.”

Islam is a Christian heresy. Muhammed viewed himself as a religious reformer. In his mind he was purifying and restoring the true religion. Islam is not on a trajectory towards Christianity, but on a trajectory away from Christianity. It stands in conscious opposition to Christian theology. A deliberate repudiation of the Christian faith.

That’s hardly equivalent to pre-Christian gentiles in Rom 1-2. Rather, that’s post-Christian and anti-Christian.

“The teaching on Islam has to be understood in light of the Church's understanding of culpable and inculpable ignorance [of Christian revelation]. I understand this is a major disagreement between Catholics and Calvinists, but I think it's the more fundamental locus of the disagreement.”

It also has to be understand in terms of Rome attempting to paper over internal tensions in her disparate theological traditions–as well as subsequent Rahnerian influences.

5/06/2011 9:42 AM

You are also directed to look at a comment by Ken Temple (another Prot Calvinist who does some very shoddy research. He also comes up with very illogical conclusions.

KEN SAID:

TUAD -
I debated that issue with Dave Armstrong in his com-boxes years ago.

The RCC Catechism is definitely wrong. And surprisingly sloppy, since it uses the word "adore", which they admit, they do not give worship or "adoration" or "latrea" to Mary.

see what I wrote in the com box below this one.

The doctrine of Allah in Islam is a false god. (since they deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, etc.)

But the Arabic word, "Allah" الله
is still the best word for Elohim in the OT and Theos in the NT.

What the RCC Catechism is attempting to say is that Muslims claim to worship the one true God, and that they are monotheists, a kind of OT idea (without the revelation of the NT).

However, even the god of Islam is a little different than the true God of the OT (if all one had was the OT to go by).

In missions, there is bad contextualization (anthropology over Bible/emerging/emergent church/seeker friendly/ C-5 / insider movements/ common ground methods) but there is good and valid contextualization, which does not change the meaning of the message, but seeks to accurately communicate the gospel in another language.

5/05/2011 4:33 PM

So now let us see if the 'argument' that Steven Hays had borrowed is really consistent and sound.

1) "Islamic theism falsifies the natural knowledge of God. It superimposes an idolatrous reinterpretation onto natural revelation."

Seeing how Steven Hays was just blowing off steam here and not really given us anything of substance we will just have to ignore this statement.

2) "They don’t worship Yahweh. They don’t worship the God of Abraham. " Seeing how there is no proofs or argumentation I guess we will just have to take good 'ol Steve at his word eh?

Yet, than there is the comment by fellow Prot and Calvinist Ken Temple...

"The doctrine of Allah in Islam is a false god. (since they deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, etc.)"

Here is the task for Steve Hays and his friends (turretinfan and Kem Temple) if they are interested. Prove to us how Christians and Jews worship the same God considering the following:

1) Judaism has no belief that the God of Abraham is triune in nature.

2) Judaism has no belief that the God of Abraham has a divine son.

3) Judaism has no belief that God reveals himself to us through a divine son.

4) Judaism does not believe that God's name is Jesus.

This being the case how is Steven Hays (and fellow Christians) consistent in saying that Muslims worship a different God because we do not hold to points 1 -4 above, yet Jews and Christians worship the same God?

It's interesting to note ( for those wanting to research more ) that a man by the name of Marcion who came up with the first Christian New Testament canon was more consistent in his approach than people like Steve Hays and Ken Temple.

Marcion was a Christian who had the Gospel of Luke and many of the epistles of Paul. Yet for Marcion the God of the Old Testament and the God that Jesus preached were two totally separate deities. It's a shame that we don't have Marcion's writings get a better appreciation for his position. Other Christian sects of that time burned Marcion's writings!

So here I am still looking for that consistent Christian that is willing to make the consistent argument. Of course Steve Hays has no problem with suggesting that Catholics and Muslims worship Allah. He even has no problem in saying that Catholics are Muslims! (quite a stretch indeed) Yet why am I not surprised in the world of Protestant apologetic?

Than again I wanted to point something out to Turretinfan. Please read your friend Steven Hays a bit more carefully before you choose a blog title! Steven Hays clearly says, "Islam is a Christian heresy."

Yet wait a minute! Isn't Turretinfan's blog article entitled: "Rome is a sect of Islam?"

http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2011/05/proof-that-rome-is-sect-of-islam.html

Steven Hays says that Islam is a sect of Christianity. However, after reading the same material Turretinfan disagrees! He comes up with a title that the Roman Catholic church is a sect of Islam!

Amazing!

You stay classy Protestants!